Letters from Paul

December 10, 2011

Stirring up a Hornet’s Nest

Who’d have thought that a simple blog about being thankful and simply pointing out that the Thanksgiving Holiday is pointless to those who refute the existence of God would be so vehemently opposed?  Mind you, I did not post my thoughts on an atheist’s website.  History is really quite clear on this.  Thanksgiving was a day set aside by Christians to thank God.  If you doubt what I wrote concerning the history, I would again encourage you to read the proclamations by William Bradford, George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln.

Suppose for a moment that a Muslim wrote “Ramadan means nothing to Christians.”  I wouldn’t have a problem with that statement nor with the writer.  Ramadan exists to teach Muslims about fasting, patience, spirituality, humility, and submissiveness to God.”  These disciplines are not exclusive to the Islamic faith any more than “gratitude” is exclusive to the Christian faith.  It goes without saying that the Muslim and I would disagree upon who God is, but I would not be outraged by the proclamation.

This courtesy certainly wasn’t extended to me.  Perhaps, I stirred up a hornet’s nest.  Since my Thanksgiving post, there have been  many comments about what I wrote and a huge outcry that I won’t post the comments by those who were offended.  I have already stated, in a previous blog, that I would no longer allow all comments and why that was the case.  If interested you can read that here:

http://www.paullyle.com/2011/10/12/is-there-enough-time/

The comments left on this topic were a confirmation of my decision.  I have ignored the personal attacks, but perhaps this will settle some of the issues you wrote about and allow others to get a glimpse of what you wrote.

1.  Almost everyone wrote and said they were thankful to: doctors, parents, friends, society, and one even wrote they were thankful for themselves (That was quite humorous).  I am not sure why anyone needed to tell me all the people in their life they were thankful for/to.  I made it abundantly clear that ALL OF US are grateful for/to people who have invested in us.  Many simply wasted their time pointing out what was already stated in the blog.  On a side note Mr. Tarte, several stated they were thankful for you.  Perhaps, it was for sending them to my blog.

2.  Many people wrote that they were thankful for the evolutionary process.  I am not sure if the museum was open on Thanksgiving Day, but if so, I guess you could have expressed your gratitude to Cro-Magnon Man and (depending upon which camp you are in) Neanderthal as well.  Although neither really deserve gratitude since they were unknowingly involved in the process.

3.  Several wrote they were thankful (believe it or not) “to” science.  It doesn’t make sense to be thankful “to” a systematized activity in which knowledge is gathered.  This would be akin to me being thankful “to” my TV for its existence.  So, if you are so inclined to thank science . . . go for it, but you might want to halt the accusations in regard to me being misguided because I believe in God.

4.  Many did write they were thankful “for” science.  Well, in reality . . . isn’t this just being thankful to people?  Science doesn’t promote or progress divorced from people.  Again, I already covered that issue.

There were several other issues in the comments that require a longer answer:

1. I mentioned that I was grateful for my son’s successful knee surgery, my wife, my children, my home, my country, etc . . .  Several of you wrote something to the effect :  “If you are going to praise God for the” good” stuff, then he also gets the blame for the “bad” stuff.”

Let me say this before I address this issue.  I always find it fascinating when atheists attempt to tell theists (in this case, a Christian) who God is and what one must believe in regard to God.   For those of you who wrote such a thing, you might be surprised to hear . . . “You are partially right.”  Unfortunately, you are also partially wrong.  Only a few years ago,  we went through Hurricane Ike here in Houston.  I believe that God created and sent the hurricane.  By the way, I am aware of the various conditions needed for a hurricane, so please don’t send me a meteorological report on hurricanes.  I also believe God is in control of the drought we are currently in.  I believe that God is in control of it all and the reason I believe these things is because God’s Word proclaims such things, BUT scripture also tells us that we are responsible for our decisions.  For instance, King David made the decision to take Bathsheba, Uriah’s wife, and then he had Uriah killed.  Later Bathsheba gives birth to a son.  Scripture is clear that God afflicted the child, but it is also clear that the affliction was the result of David’s sin.  Both God’s sovereignty and man’s choices were responsible for the death of the child.  You can find this account in 2 Samuel 11 and 12.

One could also look at the story of Job.  Here is a man who was blameless and upright.  Many love to bring up this story in an attempt to portray God as cruel.  Job loses his wealth, his children, and even his health, and yet; what was his response?

“The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”

Later Job asked the question,

“Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive disaster?

In reality, the question that many want answered is, “If God is good, then why does he allow bad things to happen to good people?”  That question will not be answered in this short blog, but I will say the problem with the question is simply . . . perspective.  I would also question your definition of “good” in regard to any man or woman.

2. One of the more popular questions was, “What about children starving or countries that are in ruin (Third World countries for example)?  What should they be thankful for?”  Many posted very tragic situations on the blog and then asked me to proclaim exactly what the individual should be thankful for.  That simply is not possible for me to know.  I do not fully know their life, and neither do you.  Secondly, how can you or I articulate or define for another person what is credible for gratitude.  In other words, what you or I think of as small and meaningless may have great significance for another person.  For example, I drink clean water all the time and it’s barely a second thought.  For those on the other side of the world, perhaps just one bottle of clean water causes unspeakable gratitude.  Perhaps you have heard the story of the man who complained to God because he had no shoes . . . until . . . he met the man who had no feet.  I know many are suffering in this world, and I also know that many are helping, caring, and compassionate towards those that are suffering.  There will always be the poor.  Scripture makes that abundantly clear, but I would ask several other questions.

Instead of asking, “Why has God created that horrible situation,” perhaps the better questions are:

A.  “What opportunities has God given me to get involved and relieve that situation.” If you applaud compassion and charity, exactly how are we to learn or exhibit either without there being a need?

B.  Perhaps the question should be, “What has man done to create that situation?”  A great example is that when I was in high school, I remember pictures of children starving in Ethiopia.  The call went out to give.  People gave time and money to help, but there was another major problem.  The country was in a civil war.  The children dying of starvation were children on the losing side.  No matter how much money and relief flooded into the area, the winning side was not going to help the losing side.  As a matter of fact, the winning side profited from the charity.  So who was responsible for the children dying of starvation in Ethiopia?

C.  Lastly, perhaps the better question is, “What can I learn from the suffering that I am going through?”  I cannot answer that question for you, but through the tough times, God has taught me some very valuable lessons.

In reality, all war, starvation, natural disasters, poverty, sickness, disease, etc . . . is the result of man’s rebellion against God.  You propose that God is cruel and severe, and yet; with all of these things happening all around you . . . you refuse to turn to him through the Savior, Jesus Christ.

3. By far, the issue that upset the most people (this was quite surprising) was the issue of thanking God for the intangibles.  It is amazing how many people chose to list all the things they had gone through and worked out to arrive at their particular point in life.  In this current age where “self-esteem” and “self-reliance” have become gods, maybe this shouldn’t be so surprising.  I guess I will just put it like this.  It has been said, “You can’t teach talent.”  Despite what your teachers, parents, or life-coaches told you, you cannot be anything you want to be or do anything you want to do.  Let me give you just one example.  The reason great opera singers are great opera singers is because they have worked at it AND because God sculpted their bone structure, their nasal cavities, their throats, their mouths and their resonance chambers in such a way that they produce great sound.  If someone works hard their whole life at singing, but they don’t have the intangibles, then they will not be a great opera singer.  I could do the same thing with sports or visual arts.  I could even say the same thing about math.  Why is it that numbers seem to speak to engineers, but they say nothing to the visual artist?  In regard to these comments, it is clear that for some the problem is not a lack of belief in God.  They just believe they are God.

I guess I will end with this.

  1. It’s your prerogative to reject faith in God, but don’t get bent out of shape when a person points out that a day set aside to thank God (Thanksgiving) is not significant to you.  You may have attached some other significance to the day, but it has nothing to do with its original concept.  I guess this could start up again if I speak about the holiday, Christmas.  Surely you realize that Christmas is to celebrate the birth of CHRIST.  That means nothing to a non-Christian.
  2. When attempting to “shock” a believer by coming to a conclusion about God, perhaps you ought to look and see what God has already told us about himself in scripture.  I know there are “Christians” who preach and promote that God only wants us to be happy and healthy, but God’s Word (our source for knowing God) simply does not promote such beliefs.  Life experience doesn’t prove that to be true either.
  3. Please don’t make assumptions about what I have and haven’t done for the poor.  I find it ironic that everyone knows what others should do with their money or time.  You don’t know me and you don’t know what I do concerning charity.
  4. Please stop writing how you are here to “defend Mr. Tarte.”  Mr. Tarte chose to read my blog, he chose to comment on it, and he chose to make it known to you.  Not once did I reference him in the blog about Thanksgiving, nor did I invite him to read it.  If you have time to read Christian blogs and write volumes about how you disagree – perhaps you could devote some of that time to charity (Oh yeah, I shouldn’t tell you where to spend your time either).

I love the Lord.  I am thankful for God sending his Son, Jesus Christ, to both teach me through his words and deeds what it means to live a God pleasing life.  I am thankful that although Christ was perfect, he died in my place on the cross and his righteousness is imputed upon me, because I am FAR from perfect.  I am glad that in only a short time we will celebrate his birth and in a matter of months, we will also celebrate his resurrection.  I have hope, not only for this life, but for the life to come.  My heart is filled with gratitude.  If you want to know more about this hope I have and my Savior whom I love . . . please just send me a comment, and I will be glad to share more with you.

In Christ,
Paul

3 Comments on “Stirring up a Hornet’s Nest”

  • Mariela says:

    Sorry to hear you caught such heavy flak. Your message – that as a society becomes more secular, religious holidays lose their true meaning and original intended purpose – does not warrant that kind of response. It’s not a hard pill to swallow, really. Just a straight forward observation many could seemingly agree with. It is truly asinine how intolerant some people can be. If people of faith wish to thank God on Thanksgiving and then blog about, welcome to America, the land of religious freedom.

  • Edward Tarte says:

    Your blog post title, ‘Who to Thank When There Is No God’, phrased almost as a question, invited those of us who do not believe in any god, to comment. I saw and have transcripts of some of the comments, and I am disappointed that you did not post them. I am also disappointed that you compared the commenters to hornets in a hornets’ nest, and that your commenter Mariela, who never saw any of the comments, refers to the comments as ‘heavy flak’, and to those who attempted to comment as ‘asinine’ and ‘intolerant’. That is name-calling, inappropriate–something that the would-be commenters that I know about are not guilty of, and something that you have indicated you do not want. Yet you posted her comment.

    I agree with your comment concerning talent. Although I play the piano, I could never be a concert pianist no matter how hard I worked at it, because my fingers simply lack the innate agility. And, no matter how hard I would try, I could never be an opera singer:)

  • paullyle says:

    Hey Edward.
    I would ask you to notice several things concerning what you wrote.
    1. WOW, we agree on something.
    2. I DID NOT “compare the commenters to hornets.” Stirring up a hornet’s nest is a figure of speech. I was sure an educator, such as yourself, would know this even though you taught math. It means to stir up trouble or cause commotion. This is now the second time you have accused me of this very same thing. You will remember that you accused me of calling the Japanese “ants” when I used another literary device known as a simile. By the way, one of the other readers also accused me of this same thing (see below).
    3. Mariela did not see any of the comments . . . but I have spoken with her about them (she is a friend) and the “Hornet’s nest” blog is a summary of the comments made to me about the “Thanksgiving” blog.

    Let me elaborate on this topic. Let me give you one example of a comment made concerning the “Thanksgiving” blog and then a second comment after my “hornet’s nest” blog. This is a perfect example of why I will no longer simply allow every comment.

    This was the first comment after the Thanksgiving blog by “The Curious Ways.”

    “It is funny that you accuse Mr. Tarte of failing to see the bigger picture when you attribute only the happy coincidences in his life to God – but what of all the ills that God caused or at least had the power to prevent?
    One may try to explain that away by talking about free will, sin or even demonic adversaries… neither of the arguments I’ve heard from that direction make a lot of sense to me.

    The world makes a lot more sense to me if I assume that it was really just my luck being born into a family that would love me, that could feed and educate me, that lives in a nice little house in a nice little town in a first-world country.
    I am grateful to those who do good to me and I am grateful to the people that made the nice things I enjoy today possible – from scientists and their inventions to champions of democracy and human rights to the people who built the school I went to and the hospital I was born in.

    I did nothing with this – just let it sit there, then after the “Hornet’s nest” blog this is what “The Curious Ways” wrote:

    Dear Mr. Lyle,
    I am one of those people you call ‘hornets’. I attempted to comment on your last piece – I was very polite, but you would not let the other readers of your blog read what I (and most likely other like-minded people) have to say.
    Now it is one thing to ignore your critics – that’s not the best thing to do, but I digress. It is quite another to censor your critics and then respond to them in this way – it’s a dishonest and unfair way to deal with your fellow humans. Anything to keep your flock away from different world views I suppose.

    Rather than embarrass him, I sent him an e-mail. BUT NOW, he should be extremely happy because his posts are for all to see. So, here is the deal. I addressed EVERYTHING in his comment in the “Hornet’s nest” blog, and yet; he was still unhappy because his post wasn’t put up on my blog. Unbelievable.

    A. He is thankful to people – I addressed that issue except I didn’t specifically mention construction workers, which he is obviously very thankful for.
    B. He accused me of calling him a “hornet.” As I asked him, “Do you guys have the same playbook?”
    C. He accused me of only wanting to thank God for the good stuff and giving Him a pass on the bad stuff – I addressed that as well.
    D. Notice that rather than thinking that the people in my church are intelligent, educated, and well informed, he referred to them as a flock. Now, what do you think is implied here Mr. Tarte? This was another theme seen over and over in the comments. Let me inform you the same way I informed “The Curious Ways.” I pastor a church in Houston, Texas (the fourth largest city in the country). Within the congregation we have engineers, architects, healthcare professionals, accountants, attorneys, educators, etc . . . and yet, “The Curious Ways” is so arrogant he believes his post is going to somehow educate these individuals and expose them to a “new” worldview. Truly incredible.
    (I did not address demonic activities – but what’s the point? Atheists don’t believe in God, therefore; no belief in demons).

    Lastly, concerning Mariela’s comment about others being asinine and intolerant. Just a couple of thoughts.
    1. Did Mariela write that because atheists don’t believe in God, “They are asinine and intolerant?” The answer is “No.” AND YET – that is all I hear the other way around. I have been called every name in the book on this blog simply because I believe in God. If she would have done so towards atheists, I would have removed the comment.
    2. Let me simply ask you the question Mr. Tarte and I will allow you to determine the outcome. Is it asinine to be intolerant of another worldview? In other words, is it asinine and intolerant to “verbally” (in this case comment on a blog) attack someone simply because they believe in a Christian worldview? Did I write anything untrue in my Thanksgiving blog? I have yet to hear anyone tell me that my understanding concerning the origin of Thanksgiving was incorrect. Was I incorrect in regard to the fact that atheists do not have anyone to thank for the intangibles? Let’s even go a little further with this before you answer. Mr. Tarte, did I seek you out and attack your naturalistic worldview or did you send a letter to my church and post video’s about my church on YouTube? If I would have gone after you and posted pictures and videos about you to the Christian community simply because you believe differently than me, would that have been asinine and intolerant? Let’s be sure we get our facts straight.
    3. Lastly, please make note that your comments are still on here, so I have not just posted those that agree with me.

    Looking forward to your answer Mr. Tarte.

    In Christ,
    Paul

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